PDA

View Full Version : Time of Day and Slot Machines



teddybo
09-15-2011, 06:53 PM
Do the hotels have the slot machines set up to win mostly at night when there are more people in the casinos or can you win at the same rate early morning or late night? Is it 24/7...? or are there the best times ?
Thanks

rbspartan
09-15-2011, 07:09 PM
I have never seen a wristwatch on the one-arm of the bandits.

Slot machines cannot tell time.
:wave:

kingpasty
09-15-2011, 07:53 PM
Sadly it doesn't matter. My girlfriend and her mother are CONVINCED that there are days/times at our local casino "when they pay" more. For some I guess it's hard to grasp the concept of a RNG. It literally boils down to the moment you press that button.

Auggie
09-15-2011, 08:06 PM
It doesn't matter what time of day it is.

It only seems like there is more winning at night, but thats just because more machines are in use because there are more people in the casino gambling.

You can picture it like if you had two rooms and each room had 50 slot machines... in the first room you have 8 people playing amongst the machines... in the second room you have 45 people playing on the machines...

In this case its going to seem like the second room is the lucky one because you'll be hearing more jackpots and big prizes being won.

onetime
09-15-2011, 08:06 PM
It does not matter what time of day or what day it is. The only way your going to hit on it is having GOOD LUCK and lots of it.

Take care and good luck will follow...........

FoolsGold
09-16-2011, 01:55 AM
Do the hotels have the slot machines set up to win mostly at night when there are more people in the casinos or can you win at the same rate early morning or late night? Is it 24/7...? or are there the best times ?If YOU owned a casino and there was some secret button that changed the probabilities of a slot machine, how could you ever sleep at night or ever leave that button?
Slot machines that face North are no different than when they happen to get turned around and face South. Slot machines get moved around from the edge of an aisle to the middle of an aisle, but they pay off exactly the same.
Day of the week, Time of the Day, ... its all the same to the slot machine. The RNG doesn't change... and thats just the way the casino wants it.

The only way to make a slot machine pay off better is to tip the cocktail waitress! (No, that doesn't actually work but they are cute girls who work hard, so I thought I'd atleast try to get everyone to tip them better).

A slot machine has a Random Number Generator and it is just that! RANDOM. Its not related to time of day or to sunspots or to humidity. Its random.

Jersey_Bill
09-16-2011, 07:48 AM
If YOU owned a casino and there was some secret button that changed the probabilities of a slot machine, how could you ever sleep at night or ever leave that button?

FG -

I hear you and absolutely believe that the RNG controls outcomes spin to spin, but the fact remains that casinos purposefully "tighten" or "loosen" machines for varying holds on an overall and individual basis. While outcomes may be random, the "central tendency" of outcomes can be adjusted to generate all those facts that slot players live by - the 99% machines verus the 94% machines and trying to find them, whether downtown or in higher denominations or whatever.

I have studied a little about how slot machines work but still don't understand how machines are "tightened" or "loosened" around the series of random outcomes generated by the RNG - but they clearly are.

I also don't know how this "central tendency" is controlled. Casinos do change this parameter. Do they have a button to do it? Is it done daily, weekly, monthly? Do you need to open the machine to make the adjustment? Does the Casino Control Board have rules on this?

You can tell I am an obsessive detail geek... :

saugamike
09-16-2011, 08:13 AM
Take this for what it's worth. A buddy I went to school with got a job as a programmer with IGT back in the tech heyday. He never went to great lengths to explain how they do it, or what they do, but the implication was that everything has the potential to be controlled.

Yes, the RNG comes into play. But again the "implication" was that, among many things, even human psychology is coded into the slot machines. Ever get those two jackpot symbols and the last one just one position below the payline of a 1-line machine? Or maybe the first symbol was out of position and the other two were lined up? What does something like that outcome do for an unknowing participant? "Oh I'm so close", "just a couple more spins".... feelings that invoke the user to put more money into the machine. The RNG belief postulates that those outcomes are completely random. Without getting into the theoretical discussion of "true" randomness and computation science, perhaps they are, but is it possible to code that in? Most certainly.

Hell, with the amount of data storage required to record a spin outcome (which could possibly be in the 1kb realm, maybe less, maybe more) could I fabricate a motherboard with an internal flash memory capacity of 2gb and hold the next 1,000,000 spins in an "outcome" stack, which would then tell me exactly what the next 1,000,000 spins will pay out versus what it will take in? Possibly. Would casinos be greatly interested to know what they expect to make with such a machine? Definitely.

Can't verify personally that any of this is true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised. The concepts are quite easy to implement from a coding perspective. Just have fun and keep in mind that you're no closer to a jackpot with a spin showing a random scattering of bars and bells or whatever than you are with two jackpot symbols lined up with the last symbol just oh so close.

sco5123
09-16-2011, 08:44 AM
I am convinced they loosen and tighten it. They change the payback percentage, especially after a jackpot. If casinos can "loosen their slots to be 30% looser than the strip" without changing most of their slot machines than trust me, all casinos have the ability to loosen them. It may or may not be a button. But I believe it can be done.

By the way, RNG is a separate concept from the act of loosening slots. RNG IS more directly related to whether a slot is stereotypically "loose" or not, which is related to payback percentages, hit frequency, and the like. RNG essentially works simultaneously with payback percentages and hit frequency; that is, a slot has a random configuration that currently has high hit frequency (frequent wins however small).

I can not see why anyone logically would not believe that casinos can loosen slots (especially when they say they have in different casinos) , particularly considering that they do increase table game minimums on nights, weekends, and holidays. Trust me, I am SURE they change their slots as well. It's only logical.

ardee
09-16-2011, 08:53 AM
What you are suggesting is illegal under Nevada law. To alter the payback percentage requires swapping out the RNG chip, and that has to be done with a State Inspector present. You have to realize that the concept of "loose" or "tight" depends on millions and millions of spins, as does payback percentage. Observational bias tells people that casinos loosen or tighten slots, but it is really just mathematical variance. It's a pain in the butt to re-chip a large number of slots, so the casinos just rely on their built-in edge to make money. They don't need anything more. The psychology involved is how "almost" spins is very involved, and there are laws on it as well.

lawfive
09-16-2011, 08:57 AM
Take this for what it's worth. A buddy I went to school with got a job as a programmer with IGT back in the tech heyday. He never went to great lengths to explain how they do it, or what they do, but the implication was that everything has the potential to be controlled.

Yes, the RNG comes into play. But again the "implication" was that, among many things, even human psychology is coded into the slot machines. Ever get those two jackpot symbols and the last one just one position below the payline of a 1-line machine? Or maybe the first symbol was out of position and the other two were lined up? What does something like that outcome do for an unknowing participant? "Oh I'm so close", "just a couple more spins".... feelings that invoke the user to put more money into the machine. The RNG belief postulates that those outcomes are completely random. Without getting into the theoretical discussion of "true" randomness and computation science, perhaps they are, but is it possible to code that in? Most certainly.

Hell, with the amount of data storage required to record a spin outcome (which could possibly be in the 1kb realm, maybe less, maybe more) could I fabricate a motherboard with an internal flash memory capacity of 2gb and hold the next 1,000,000 spins in an "outcome" stack, which would then tell me exactly what the next 1,000,000 spins will pay out versus what it will take in? Possibly. Would casinos be greatly interested to know what they expect to make with such a machine? Definitely.

Can't verify personally that any of this is true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised. The concepts are quite easy to implement from a coding perspective. Just have fun and keep in mind that you're no closer to a jackpot with a spin showing a random scattering of bars and bells or whatever than you are with two jackpot symbols lined up with the last symbol just oh so close.

Most people assume that the RNG randomly spins the wheels. They do not. They only randomly assign an outcome (in other words, lose, win 1 unit, win 2 units, etc.). After that, the computer determines where the wheels will land - and that is NOT random. More of than random, the wheels will land in a way that makes it look like you almost won, purposely to suck you in. It's not illegal nor even unethical. From a gaming board perspective, they don't care if near wins and totally misses are assigned randomly. They just care that lose, win 1, win 2, etc are.

Jersey_Bill
09-16-2011, 09:24 AM
Interesting discussion of all of this on Wizard of Odds -


Considering that a slot machines random number generator is fixed to supply the selected numbers to the virtual reel stops and in turn are tied to the actual reel stops, is it not possible for the casino computers to swap non winning stops to win stops thus increasing the win percentage. This would maybe explain why all machines on some carousels seem to get hot at the same time, then all revert back after drawing a crowd of players...just wondering...your site is a great information site...thanks


No, this does not happen. How much the casino pays is determined by a microchip called an e-prom which is generally left alone. To change it the casino would have to get permission from the gaming authorities. Even without permission the casino would have to open up each machine and change them by hand.
I speculate that the reason for what you observed about all the machines on a carosel getting hot at the same time is due partially to chance and partially to a snowball effect where players will gravitate to an area where they hear a lot of winning and simply add to the number of wins because of more players. June 25, 2000


Wizard, what do you think about the new "server based" slot machines currently being tested at Barona Valley Ranch? Apparently this technology allows the casino to instantly change the machines from their back offices - including the games offered, denominations, and.....the payouts! I think this is going a bit far. I mean what's to stop the house from targeting certain players (like the drunk high roller) and making it tougher for that player to win? We all know the casinos can pretty much keep an eye on any player they want any time. Between the surveillance and now this technology it seems to give the house too much of an edge. Suppose a table player has a heated disagreement with a dealer or pit boss over a hand (which occasionally happens); now this same player goes to the slots and the house can extract revenge by making his machine pay out less??!! Of course they could "favor" certain players too...which could be just as dangerous. I'm all for allowing the games and denominations to be changed, but shouldn't the regulators be involved when it comes to payout percentages??? - Gary from Charlotte, NC


From what I hear anything you can configure at the machine you can configure remotely through the server. This would include the theoretical return percentage. However most casinos report that changing the theoretical return of a slot machine necessitates a lot of paperwork.

I asked a source of mine who works at one of the casinos that utilize this technology. Besides the Treasure Island, this technology is also used at casinos in California, Michigan, and Mississippi. Here is what he said,

"Nothing can be changed if there are credits on the game. The slot machine will always reject any changes sent when there are credits on the meter. In Nevada, the machine also has to be idle for four minutes prior to and following any changes. It's also not completely transparent to anyone standing in front of the slot machine. A black window pops up that says 'Remote Configuration In Progress' (or something like that).

We mainly use ours to change the available denominations on our games. Similar to how table games will raise minimum bets on when the casino is busier, we will remove lower denominations on Friday morning and return them on Monday morning."

So, rest assured, that the slot manager can not tighten up a game on you just because he doesnt like you. As long as you have credit in the game, nothing can be changed.

Even if it were effortless to move the slot machine return up and down, it strikes me as a conspiracy theory to think the casinos would do that on a player by player basis. Living here in Vegas, I hear all kinds of theories about the lengths the casinos go to in order to win, like pumping in oxygen and playing a subsonic mantra that says "lose lose lose." These are just urban legends. Most casinos correctly believe that if you give the player a good experience and a fair gamble then he will keep coming back. As they say, you can only slaughter a sheep only once, but you can shear it many times. (My webmaster, Michael Bluejay, who is a vegetarian, tried to get me to use this analogy instead: "You can seize all of a sheep's money only once, but you can force it to take you bowling many times.") May 10, 2006

seviay
09-16-2011, 10:39 AM
FG -

I hear you and absolutely believe that the RNG controls outcomes spin to spin, but the fact remains that casinos purposefully "tighten" or "loosen" machines for varying holds on an overall and individual basis. While outcomes may be random, the "central tendency" of outcomes can be adjusted to generate all those facts that slot players live by - the 99% machines verus the 94% machines and trying to find them, whether downtown or in higher denominations or whatever.

I have studied a little about how slot machines work but still don't understand how machines are "tightened" or "loosened" around the series of random outcomes generated by the RNG - but they clearly are.

I also don't know how this "central tendency" is controlled. Casinos do change this parameter. Do they have a button to do it? Is it done daily, weekly, monthly? Do you need to open the machine to make the adjustment? Does the Casino Control Board have rules on this?

You can tell I am an obsessive detail geek... :
I think any time they change the hold on their machines, they have to clear it with the gaming commission first, right?

Jersey_Bill
09-16-2011, 06:36 PM
I think you are right - which explains the paperwork. And apparently a representative has to be present when they change the chip in the machine too. Now, the next generation of networked machines where you can change it from the control room STILL requires the paperwork to be done every time.

I would imagine that this results in them changing the payout percentages fairly infrequently - and perhaps the easiest way to do it is just moving the machines around - which we certainly see happening.

Say some payout war started raging on the Strip where the casinos competed on payouts, I can see them changing all their systems for something like this - but I can't see it happening every day.... Seems like too much a bother...

FoolsGold
09-17-2011, 05:58 AM
I am convinced they loosen and tighten it.They don't! Just the paperwork involved in making the MEAL book entry is not worth it.

FoolsGold
09-17-2011, 06:01 AM
They change the payback percentage, especially after a jackpot.
Nope. After a jackpot or before a jackpot its all the exact same innards.

on edit: they would probably prefer to modify it before a jackpot anyway.

ardee
09-17-2011, 04:19 PM
Why people subscribe to conspiracy theories is beyond me. The casinos don't need to alter things - they are making bank on the house edge already. Why go though all the paperwork and hassle to tweak a particular machine when you can just wait 60 days until your next replacement cycle and have the new machines set at a higher "keep."

FoolsGold
09-17-2011, 06:13 PM
I would imagine that this results in them changing the payout percentages fairly infrequently - and perhaps the easiest way to do it is just moving the machines around - which we certainly see happening. Machines are often moved around for crowd flow purposes and to cover blemishes from removing other machines for maintenance. Popularity of machines changes and often locations change.
Heaven help a slot manager trying to hold onto his job if even ONE slot machine is ordered opened by a Gaming Official and its found to have a different chip than the paperwork indicates. It doesn't matter if its a higher payout or a lower payout, any difference than what the paperwork indicates and that slot manager is going to be looking for work. The casino will fax the changes to the gaming board just to keep the paperwork up to date.

golfnut
09-17-2011, 07:55 PM
I've almost won many jackpots with the reels showing jackpot,jackpot,almost jackpot. Or so I thought I almost won. I also heard that this is illegal for casinos to program that into there slots to keep people playing. However I've seen it so many times myself I'm convinces they do it.

golfnut
09-17-2011, 08:00 PM
I've also heard that there is nothing random about the rng. That there is no way for a computer to randomly decide what happens next that it has to be to in some way what to do next. I'm not saying that it can't I'm just saying that's what I've heard.

Didn't some guy figure out how to beat the keno machines by figuring out what numera would come up next by the previous numbers?

Jersey_Bill
09-17-2011, 09:17 PM
I've almost won many jackpots with the reels showing jackpot,jackpot,almost jackpot. Or so I thought I almost won. I also heard that this is illegal for casinos to program that into there slots to keep people playing. However I've seen it so many times myself I'm convinces they do it.

If you go to the Wizard of Odds write up on slots and then check out Appendix 2, you see a simple example of how this is programmed. For the most desirable symbols in the first two reels, they weight most heavily the blanks on either side of that symbol in the last reel, making it more likely that there will be plenty of "near misses"....

FoolsGold
09-18-2011, 06:27 AM
I've also heard that there is nothing random about the rng. Technically it is a pseudo random number generator and in a purest sense it can be disputed until the cows come home but only by statisticians and computer scientists who want to take mathematical proofs out to the umpteenth zillion decimal places and discuss angels dancing on the head of a pin. If you live "the real world"... its random!!!

Jersey_Bill
09-18-2011, 07:01 AM
Yeah, the thing that I have been wrestling with is that there are a limited number of spaces on each wheel so the odds of getting those three lions on "Lion's Share" should be a lot higher than they are in actuality - so how do you make that event random and rare?

The article in Wizard of Odds suggests that each wheel's outcome is weighted to make some much more likely to be chosen, so you are still dealing with a random process - but one where certain outcomes are much more likely to happen....

WrongWayWade
09-19-2011, 07:00 AM
Most people assume that the RNG randomly spins the wheels. They do not. They only randomly assign an outcome (in other words, lose, win 1 unit, win 2 units, etc.). After that, the computer determines where the wheels will land - and that is NOT random. More of than random, the wheels will land in a way that makes it look like you almost won, purposely to suck you in. It's not illegal nor even unethical. From a gaming board perspective, they don't care if near wins and totally misses are assigned randomly. They just care that lose, win 1, win 2, etc are.

Completely false. (But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.) First, the RNG is just that, a random number generator which trivially and simply spits out random numbers until you push the button, then it selects three random numbers. Each of these numbers is assigned to a slot of the VIRTUAL reels (which are much bigger than the actual reels), and then it displays the slots that have been selected. The overall payout on the machine is completely based on what's on the virtual reels and how many times the various symbols appear on those reels (and has nothing to do with the RNG). Example, there may be 65535 slots on each virtual reel, and only 2 are assigned to the jackpot symbol. That's how it 'controls' the fact the the jackpot will be paid extremely rarely.

It's just dumb luck and the layout of the virtual reels that sometimes makes it look like you 'almost' hit it big.

saugamike
09-19-2011, 07:24 AM
Completely false. (But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.) First, the RNG is just that, a random number generator which trivially and simply spits out random numbers until you push the button, then it selects three random numbers. Each of these numbers is assigned to a slot of the VIRTUAL reels (which are much bigger than the actual reels), and then it displays the slots that have been selected. The overall payout on the machine is completely based on what's on the virtual reels and how many times the various symbols appear on those reels (and has nothing to do with the RNG). Example, there may be 65535 slots on each virtual reel, and only 2 are assigned to the jackpot symbol. That's how it 'controls' the fact the the jackpot will be paid extremely rarely.

It's just dumb luck and the layout of the virtual reels that sometimes makes it look like you 'almost' hit it big.

Interested to know how you know this. Have you worked at any of the slot machine manufacturers? I've always been keen on the programming side of slot gaming.

lawfive
09-19-2011, 08:53 AM
Interested to know how you know this.

He doesn't. He just makes a strong assertion about not letting facts get in the way of a good story, but then weaves his own nice story with no links or facts to back it up. What he described are how classic slots were programmed (this is a good article: http://vegasclick.com/games/slots/how-they-work.html). Most modern slots and all video slots are programmed as I described above.

mdee
09-19-2011, 09:15 AM
He doesn't. He just makes a strong assertion about not letting facts get in the way of a good story, but then weaves his own nice story with no links or facts to back it up.

The RNG outcomes are generated while the machine sits idle. The reels are just eye candy. The outcome of the RNG is determined the second you hit the button or pull the arm.
Slot machines are regulated by the state and a casino needs to have approval to change out it's chip-set which is done by a rep from the slot machine manufacturer.

Remember the casinos basically rent these machines, they do not own them.

The chip determines the payout ratio of say 82% - 94% or whatever. It is all random.

If a bank of machines says 98% payout then by law only one of those machines in that bank has to payout that amount...
Over what time period is the million dollar question. It could be over the lifetime of that machine.

The casino does not have a magic switch they can flip at will.

lawfive
09-19-2011, 09:33 AM
The RNG outcomes are generated while the machine sits idle. The reels are just eye candy.


Exactly right. That is why it is impossible for someone to figure out how to "break" the RNG and know when it will hit. Since the slot machine takes a few seconds to show the outcome of the RNG number on the reels or on the screen, literally thousands of random numbers are being generated that no one will ever see. And without that information, no one could determine even remotely the pattern of random numbers being generated.

Jersey_Bill
09-19-2011, 10:08 AM
Exactly right. That is why it is impossible for someone to figure out how to "break" the RNG and know when it will hit. Since the slot machine takes a few seconds to show the outcome of the RNG number on the reels or on the screen, literally thousands of random numbers are being generated that no one will ever see. And without that information, no one could determine even remotely the pattern of random numbers being generated.

And I suppose that obsoletes all the old methods of cheating - using magnets or wires to force the wheels to stop in a certain position. The outcome is determined when the button is pressed and the RNG fires - not when the wheel stops. That's just for show because we expect it....

JZB

Bubbavegas
09-19-2011, 10:42 AM
I've also heard that there is nothing random about the rng. That there is no way for a computer to randomly decide what happens next that it has to be to in some way what to do next. I'm not saying that it can't I'm just saying that's what I've heard.

Didn't some guy figure out how to beat the keno machines by figuring out what numera would come up next by the previous numbers?

Thats true the RNG in a slot is actually an SRNG, a semi random RNG not truly random. Thats from a friend who recently went to work as a programmer for a local dist to the NA casinos here. Acording to him, and I tested this advice this weekend with great results, your best option instead of buying CT theory is to increase your denomination when possible as the payouts programmed in are higher. That worked to a 500+ win on a 1.50 bet on 3 different Twin Win machines at two different casinos yesterday. I switched from the nickel I usual bet to a dime and slammed every machine within the first ten spins, the wife did the same on a Lucky Leprechaun machine as well.

Guardian
09-19-2011, 02:34 PM
Keep doing that and you will be broke before you know it.

FoolsGold
09-19-2011, 04:31 PM
The outcome is determined when the button is pressed and the RNG fires - not when the wheel stops. That's just for show because we expect it....
That is pretty much it. The pretty girl smiles and then says "No" ... its part of the game. You keep going back to the slot machine only if there is some excitement and "smile" to the machine. If it just slaps your face instantly its not much fun.

Bubbavegas
09-19-2011, 04:34 PM
Keep doing that and you will be broke before you know it.

And why would you say that? Look at the slot % numbers just in LV alone and it's obvious and proven the higher denoms have better % of payout. I usually play at least 2 cents and always win better at 2 than I do at 1 when I have that option. Sure it's not a guarantee, nothing is that's why it's called gambling, but I have enough sense to leave the machine when it's not paying instead of losing my BR.

dalej42
09-21-2011, 03:32 PM
I've only seen a large jackpot being hit once on a slot machine and it was around 5 in the AM on a Monday morning. The casino was pretty deserted. Strictly a random event. I'm sure the casino would have preferred to have it happend 12 hours earlier when it was packed during a NFL Sunday.

WrongWayWade
09-22-2011, 05:35 AM
He doesn't. He just makes a strong assertion about not letting facts get in the way of a good story, but then weaves his own nice story with no links or facts to back it up. What he described are how classic slots were programmed (this is a good article: http://vegasclick.com/games/slots/how-they-work.html). Most modern slots and all video slots are programmed as I described above.

There are plenty of web resources that explain the RNG and virtual reels and how those manage the payouts. Just Google 'virtual reels slot machines and start reading. BTW, nothing on the referenced page above disputes what I said about the virtual reels concept and how the RNG works. Try: www.wizardofodds.com/slots, the first paragraph, 'How They Work'. He uses the phrase 'reel strips' which is the same as 'virtual reels'.

Bubbavegas
09-22-2011, 05:42 AM
Having a couple of days off I decided to hang at the local I frequent the last two day to see if there was a time when they paid more jackpots, and found I'll be damned these two days there were. I spent 14 hours the last two days, 9 Am to 11 PM roughly. mainly playing 3-6 TH with slot play mixed in and both days the jackpots hit between 6 and 9:30 PM. Honestly during the day there were no big wins announced over the PA system and this place announces every hand pay they put out. The times surprised me as these are definitely the busiest times of the day. The wife and I were talking about it and we could not remember a time early or late night when either one of us had hit a big win or heard wins announced. Last night they paid out 6 between the time of 7:30PM to 9PM between 1500 and 7200 bucks and Tuesday they paid out 5 between 6 and 8 PM from 1100 to 4300.

teddybo
09-22-2011, 05:49 AM
Maybe the big shots do have control of time of day of hits on slots..they can control anything and everything these days...

ardee
09-22-2011, 07:07 AM
Which is only logical, as more players means more cycles. Obviously, a machine that is being constantly played is going to hit more often than a machine that is never played.

GNH2000
09-22-2011, 08:30 AM
When we played slots a couple of weeks ago, we found out that when we smiled and prayed to the eye in the sky, we would hit jackpot after jackpot.

When we were whining and swearing about never hitting, we hit nothing.

We quickly learned that sugar worked better than vinegar and we came home with thousands of dollars.

We'll remember that the next trip. :poke:

ken2v
09-22-2011, 08:43 AM
Capricorn One was based on fact, pure and simple.

VegasDragon
09-22-2011, 10:02 AM
Capricorn One was based on fact, pure and simple.

The OJ can't be wrong!:evillaugh

Bubbavegas
09-22-2011, 10:42 AM
Oh Lord I was not posting that as a CT theory that the evil casino management controls all with the flip of a switch, just merely FACTS from a place I have played at a minimum of three times a wekk for 5 years. Some folks need to quit reading so much into posts on these things. :rolleyes2::grrr:

ken2v
09-22-2011, 10:59 AM
Thanks, your tirade made me read your post.

I look forward to the statistical analysis that accompanies your "facts."

:thumbsup:

Fuddrucker
09-22-2011, 12:26 PM
All slot machines are set to payoff when I am walking by them watching other people play. There is a chip in them that can detect me getting close and it triggers a payout for the player. However, it can also detect me sitting down to play and then resets to "take my money mode" :thumbsup:

...Fudd

fred323
09-22-2011, 02:06 PM
just the other day, one person hit WOF for 10k and then 20 minutes later (not the same machine) someone hit for $5,000... It was late... afte midnight but the slots were hot.. those are $10.00 machines

bigwill
09-25-2011, 07:50 PM
10 dollar slots they should be hitting those jackpot there little jackpots when you can lose 1000s in an hour on a machine like that i can put a 100$ in a penny machine here in canada bettting 1.00 a spin and most times it doesnt last longer then 8-15 minutes the machines up here are useless or ive just got the worst luck on slots

justthefacts
09-26-2011, 12:17 AM
This picture will give you the correct answer to the Original Poster's question.

http://postimage.org/image/1uq5mzais/

This is common knowledge among people in the gaming industry, and not really a secret. http://www.ballygaming.com will tell you all you need to know about server based gaming.

Time and day aren't the only things that can be changed.

It's 2011 folks, not 2000 anymore.

Bubbavegas
09-26-2011, 08:59 AM
This picture will give you the correct answer to the Original Poster's question.

http://postimage.org/image/1uq5mzais/

This is common knowledge among people in the gaming industry, and not really a secret. http://www.ballygaming.com will tell you all you need to know about server based gaming.

Time and day aren't the only things that can be changed.

It's 2011 folks, not 2000 anymore.

Interesting, I saw one of the FMs this weekend with a screen like that up on a machine but didnt pay that much attention to it, interesting pic.

joyglen
09-26-2011, 09:47 AM
It doesn't matter what time of day it is.

It only seems like there is more winning at night, but thats just because more machines are in use because there are more people in the casino gambling.


The correct answer, end of story.

Electroguy563
09-26-2011, 09:18 PM
Sigh....and I thought only us crap players were superstitious.......:wink:poke:

justthefacts
09-27-2011, 12:58 AM
Sigh....and I thought only us crap players were superstitious.......:wink:poke:

You guys are ridiculous lol.

I posted solid proof that paybacks can be changed and set to a time schedule via a central computer and you all either did not read the post, or chose to ignore it...

SIGH

Again google Bally command center.

engicedave
09-27-2011, 03:18 AM
You guys are ridiculous lol.

I posted solid proof that paybacks can be changed and set to a time schedule via a central computer and you all either did not read the post, or chose to ignore it...

SIGH

Again google Bally command center.

We know it CAN be done, the question is, do they and is it legal?
Has the Nevada Gaming Commission approved the use of such a system in Nevada casinos?

Bubbavegas
09-27-2011, 05:36 AM
We know it CAN be done, the question is, do they and is it legal?
Has the Nevada Gaming Commission approved the use of such a system in Nevada casinos?

Thats the sticking point, what the laws are in different states regarding such changes. Nevada has much stricter laws in regards to this as well as much more open records than many places do, hell in my state the tribal government has complete control of those issues, the state can do nothing in regards to control of % of payback.

tacallian
09-27-2011, 08:33 AM
A curious thing about that screenshot. Why would a remote slot administration terminal only allow increments/decrements of 2% in payback percentage?

ken2v
09-27-2011, 08:35 AM
Server-based just makes it easier to change things up. Doesn't matter. The bottom line remains that for all the machine-whispering, systems and the other snake oil, it's still not predictive. Ring me up when some John Q. comes up with a way to look at a slot and discern not just the payout, but when it is going to pay out.

This remains dog-bites-man news.

justthefacts
09-27-2011, 11:11 AM
We know it CAN be done, the question is, do they and is it legal?
Has the Nevada Gaming Commission approved the use of such a system in Nevada casinos?

Of course it is... Bally's like IGT is a premier slots manufacturer. They wouldn't develop something unless it were on the up and up.

According to the Nevada gaming commission paybacks can be changed remotely under the following condition "Machine is not being played, machine has been idle for 3 mins or longer"

teddybo
09-27-2011, 11:53 AM
so then if management changes the time of day when the slot machines pay out more frequently, is evening and night time the most advantageous time ???

Pretty scary that they can change percentages with the flick of a switch ???

dmr
09-27-2011, 12:00 PM
According to the Nevada gaming commission paybacks can be changed remotely under the following condition "Machine is not being played, machine has been idle for 3 mins or longer"

Do you have a cite for this and any similar regulations?

This is a very frequent subject, and I admit I'm confused about what the rules really are. It would be nice to have a link to something authoritative.

Thanks.

CarolinaGirl
09-27-2011, 12:19 PM
Ok, for what it's worth (and I don't want to argue/debate if the Casinos crank 'em up in the evenings) but, here goes....

Just my personal experience at Casinos (Vegas and other destinations) I don't win (or very seldom) during the day time hours, my luck comes in the evenings and wee hours of the mornings.

A few years back when I did go to the only Casino in NC (Harrah's in Cherokee), I got to know many of the locals. They would not come into the Casino to play until 9pm or later, their reason, they won more often in the evenings, and we are talking many locals said their daytime play just ate up their bankroll with little to no wins to recycle and continue the entertainment. Several believed that the Casino did have some kind of timer on the machines and could flip a switch for more frequent hits in the evenings. Their theory was the Casino doesn't need to keep people playing during the day (you can hardly find an open machine), but in the evenings, if people are hitting and others observe, they tend to stay in the Casino instead of going home.

Yes, slot players are a superstitious bunch, but I heard this winning a heckuva lot more in the evenings/wee hours from more people than I can remember. And, I win more in the evenings/wee hours, daytime on the slots has never paid off for me anywhere, just sayin'..... Call me an all nighter slot player...

engicedave
09-27-2011, 12:24 PM
Of course it is... Bally's like IGT is a premier slots manufacturer. They wouldn't develop something unless it were on the up and up.

According to the Nevada gaming commission paybacks can be changed remotely under the following condition "Machine is not being played, machine has been idle for 3 mins or longer"

I know that rule was proposed when server based gaming technology was being tested, but can you show me evidence of where it was approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission for use and implemented?

ken2v
09-27-2011, 12:28 PM
Glen already cut through the lunacy: Lots more folks are shoving money into slots at night than at 9 am. It's just like flying. A plane can drop at any time, but those who fly more than others are presented with a higher probability (although it's still relatively negligible in light of the many other ways to come to an ugly death here in America) of being taken out in a plane crash. It's a pretty simple concept.

Anecdotal "evidence" is just that, anecdotal. If someone wants to show data for an extended period of gambling, with time dollars results and all that, AND then produce the time-correlated figures for each machines' hold percentage, I'm all ears.

I've never been dealt a multi-line RF at night. I've been dealt a multi-line RF during the day. Therefore, the machines are looser during the day, no?

Anyway, the vast majority of Vegas' gambling history predates server-based technology. So all this anecdotal mania goes out the window, unless you are a person who subscribes to the troll-changes-the-chip theory.

engicedave
09-27-2011, 12:29 PM
One other comment, why is it, in today's world of instant millions on book deals, have we not seen a book or even a news article from some "Deep Throat" slot tech guy?
Those are not big money gigs, why hasn't one of those slot people stepped up with a book or blog and spilled the beans, exposing the charade for all to see?

It's like people who talk about the moon landings being faked....all these years later, not one person talked? Not even to a family member? Not possible...just isn't possible

saugamike
09-27-2011, 12:32 PM
Source: "Technical Standards for Gaming Devices and On-Line Slot Systems" (Rev 12/07), Nevada Gaming Commission

...

1.140 Conditions for changing active software on a conventional gaming device or client station that is part of a system supported or system based game.
1. Active software consists of all the games currently available for immediate play by the patron on the conventional gaming device or client station. For this section, immediate play means games that do not require additional software or a change in game configuration such as denomination, maximum wager, payback percentage, etc. prior to the patron being able to initiate
play.
2. The conventional gaming device or client station must be in the idle mode with no errors or tilts, no play and no credits on the machine for at least 4 minutes. After this time, the conventional gaming device or client station must be disabled and rendered unplayable for at least 4 minutes. During the time the machine is disabled a message must be displayed on a video screen or other appropriate display device notifying the patron that the game configuration has been changed.
3. If the change in the active software is the direct result of a player request, the delay requirements of section 2 of this technical standard may be ignored. However, the active software may not be changed if an error or tilt exists on the conventional gaming device or client station.
(Adopted: 11/17/05.)

In conjunction with:

2.010 Changes to payout percentage.
1. The theoretical payback percentage of a gaming device must not be capable of being changed without making a hardware or software change in the device except as provided for in Technical Standard 1. For purposes of this standard, the addition of an attendant-paid bonus, a progressive jackpot, or a change in rate of progression of an existing progressive jackpot is not
considered to be a change in the theoretical payback of the gaming device.
2. Notwithstanding subsection 1, draw poker type gaming devices may have switch selectable or menu selectable top award values so long as the selectable range does not alter the payback percentage of the device by more than 1 percent with typical field play.
(Adopted: 9/89. Amended: 11/17/05.)


Not sure where it's being implemented, but to me this means a green light. Whatever, just play for fun. Life could be much worse than blowing your bankroll on slots.

oghuman
09-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Take this for what it's worth. A buddy I went to school with got a job as a programmer with IGT back in the tech heyday. He never went to great lengths to explain how they do it, or what they do, but the implication was that everything has the potential to be controlled.

Yes, the RNG comes into play. But again the "implication" was that, among many things, even human psychology is coded into the slot machines. Ever get those two jackpot symbols and the last one just one position below the payline of a 1-line machine? Or maybe the first symbol was out of position and the other two were lined up? What does something like that outcome do for an unknowing participant? "Oh I'm so close", "just a couple more spins".... feelings that invoke the user to put more money into the machine. The RNG belief postulates that those outcomes are completely random. Without getting into the theoretical discussion of "true" randomness and computation science, perhaps they are, but is it possible to code that in? Most certainly.

Hell, with the amount of data storage required to record a spin outcome (which could possibly be in the 1kb realm, maybe less, maybe more) could I fabricate a motherboard with an internal flash memory capacity of 2gb and hold the next 1,000,000 spins in an "outcome" stack, which would then tell me exactly what the next 1,000,000 spins will pay out versus what it will take in? Possibly. Would casinos be greatly interested to know what they expect to make with such a machine? Definitely.

Can't verify personally that any of this is true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised. The concepts are quite easy to implement from a coding perspective. Just have fun and keep in mind that you're no closer to a jackpot with a spin showing a random scattering of bars and bells or whatever than you are with two jackpot symbols lined up with the last symbol just oh so close.

I'm not getting what you mean by the 1kb realm. 1kb translates to 1000 bits- not much unless you're going back to the 60's and 70's.
1KB would be 1000 bytes. So what exactly do you want to say? Did you mean, Kilo, Gig or Tera bytes or bits?

saugamike
09-27-2011, 12:38 PM
A moot point and depending on whether you want to code in assembly or FPGA languages the relative storage scales are both applicable - however, apologies for the typo.

I did mean kilobytes, fwiw.

dmr
09-27-2011, 12:41 PM
Source: "Technical Standards for Gaming Devices and On-Line Slot Systems" (Rev 12/07), Nevada Gaming Commission

THANK YOU!

I did a bit of googling during an otherwise boring conference call :) and found the following posted on that always-accurate bastion of knowledge, Wilkipedia:



In 2006, the Nevada Gaming Commission began working with Las Vegas casinos on technology that would allow the casino's management to change the game, the odds, and the payouts remotely. The change cannot be done instantaneously, but only after the selected machine has been idle for at least four minutes. After the change is made, the machine must be locked to new players for four minutes and display an on-screen message informing potential players that a change is being made.

Wikipedia has the following cite:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/technology/12casino.html?ei=5089&en=9e945a28ba5016c6&ex=1302494400&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

Note that this article is 5 years old! I'm very surprised this tidbit is not common knowledge among the folks here!

Some more recent chit-chat here:

http://www.slotmachinesforum.com/archive/index.php/t-10546.html

Joe
09-27-2011, 12:42 PM
Wow! Not a slot player, but what an amazing thread. :wink2:

dmr
09-27-2011, 12:49 PM
For the complete document, surf here:

http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs/reg14_tech_stnds.pdf

engicedave
09-27-2011, 01:09 PM
OK, so it can't change in mid-play. So, it's not like they can't make a "hot" machine "cold" while you are playing it. The percentage it is set at is what it will stay at.

Now, when it does change, don't you think people are going to notice? One minute the machine is sitting like normal and then goes into what I suspect is a "re-booting" and then once re-booted is locked up for four additional minutes. Not something you can hide.

I knew that was what was proposed when they were talking about it, but never new for sure if it was implemented (guess it was)

Nonetheless, machines seem hot or cold anyway, so is it really a big deal? I can't see a casino re-booting an entire bank in public and during busy times.

ken2v
09-27-2011, 01:14 PM
No, it is not a big deal because there still is no way for a person intent on pissing away the twins' inheritance to know what the payout percentage is, regardless how it can be changed by the house. The ONLY thing that is different is the mechanism by which the casino can change the payout percentage.

But thankfully casinos are full of superstitious people who believe in the modern equivalent of alchemy because they are helping to keep the lights on, the doors open and other, playable games, such as they still exist, still in the house.

Bubbavegas
09-27-2011, 02:26 PM
Hmmm why is the facts guy is now listed as MIA and a post of his missing? Fact remains, contrary to some peoples earlier posts attempting to demean others, that the casino can very well change the payout % with little effort AND it is legal for them to do so. So many times the "experts" have told us it's either not possible or too costly and now we find out they were and have been wrong. :nono::

engicedave
09-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Hmmm why is the facts guy is now listed as MIA and a post of his missing? Fact remains, contrary to some peoples earlier posts attempting to demean others, that the casino can very well change the payout % with little effort AND it is legal for them to do so. So many times the "experts" have told us it's either not possible or too costly and now we find out they were and have been wrong. :nono::

Well, again, as stated prior, it may be possible, but do we know for a fact if any casino is implementing it?
Personally, of all the casinos I have played, both nationwide and worldwide, I have never seen a computer "re-boot" all buy itself, then start back up and be locked up for a period of time.
I have never seen this in Vegas or elsewhere.
Not saying it doesn't happen, but never seen it.

At the same time, considering we know casinos order their slots at varying payouts and through some method of psychology and science place the varying payout machines strategically throughout the casino, what real advantage is there to this system? How often can you re-boot a bank or the computers in a day?
Seems to me, it's a rarely used feature. Once they determine the proper payout for that unit, denomination and location, they do like Ron Popeil, set it and forget it.

Otherwise, machines would be booting and locking up all the time as some doofus plays "beat the players" by constantly changing payout

sco5123
09-27-2011, 03:21 PM
Who, where, when, why....They can change it. I have never seen any reboot either but....they can change it.

Sonya
09-27-2011, 03:46 PM
JustTheFacts is no longer a member here.

Sorry for the confusion in the thread. I tried to keep it somewhat coherent. :)

Have we asked and answered this question now? I'd love to lock this up.

ken2v
09-27-2011, 03:51 PM
Sure, lock it down, here's what we know and need to know.

Server-based systems are allowed.

Machines still don't get "hot" and "cold."

No one in the world, not even the slot programmer, knows when a particular combo of random events will occur to produce a "happy" result.

Slot players still have no idea what a particular machine's hold percentage is.

No effective change.

CarolinaGirl
09-27-2011, 04:32 PM
When the Casino orders the specs for a slot machine (pay out/hold) wouldn't it be easy enough to tell that slot manufacturer to program that machine to hit more frequently or less day versus night? They order some to pay out 85% or 98%, right?

shifter
09-27-2011, 04:34 PM
When the Casino orders the specs for a slot machine (pay out/hold) wouldn't it be easy enough to tell that slot manufacturer to program that machine to hit more frequently or less day versus night? They order some to pay out 85% or 98%, right?
slot machines don't work that way. it's all based on RNGs that come out to a specific payout over millions and millions of pulls.

CarolinaGirl
09-27-2011, 04:37 PM
Thanks Shifter for the explanation, I guess seeing a certain bank of slots that have signage stating 98% pay out made me think that they could be programmed at the Manufacturer to be more give/less take.

teddybo
10-02-2011, 07:18 PM
I know there are a lot of differing opinions regarding the Time of day of slot wins and management controlling the winning percentages and times etc.....


But in reality, has anyone had decent slot machine wins in the morning hours, 5 AM to noon,,,

or in the afternoon hours from noon to say 7PM....

I know many have had wins, including myself, at nighttime, 7PM to 3 AM,,,

but has anyone had good wins in the regular morning and afternoon hours...?

Just wondering as I'm going in about 2 weeks and don't want to waste money if it is rigged a bit to pay less during those morning and sfternoon times....

Thanks
Teddy

Brensan
10-02-2011, 07:29 PM
Hi Teddy - I personally have never had any good luck with slots during the day in Vegas. I have the best luck on Thursday and Friday nights at NYNY. Saturday nights are ok, but Sunday during the day or night has always been bad for me. There's only one exception for me and my husband while in Louisiana - we won almost $50,000 between 5am and 8am (various jackpots) at Coushatta - it was a magical morning - three years ago! But we usually observe the slots seem to shut down (there and in Vegas) after 3am. Problem is, we are usually too drunk by then to stop!!!:drunk:

engicedave
10-02-2011, 07:32 PM
8:30 am at Paris

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6205725241_7e8366b93d.jpg

ken2v
10-02-2011, 07:54 PM
I know there are a lot of differing opinions regarding the Time of day of slot wins and management controlling the winning percentages and times etc.....


But in reality, has anyone had decent slot machine wins in the morning hours, 5 AM to noon,,,

or in the afternoon hours from noon to say 7PM....

I know many have had wins, including myself, at nighttime, 7PM to 3 AM,,,

but has anyone had good wins in the regular morning and afternoon hours...?

Just wondering as I'm going in about 2 weeks and don't want to waste money if it is rigged a bit to pay less during those morning and sfternoon times....

Thanks
Teddy

No matter how many times and ways you ask this question you are not going to get the answer you obviously want. So just go to Vegas, take money you can afford to lose, play what and when you want, and just enjoy. And hopefully you will win some.

Brensan
10-02-2011, 08:01 PM
Ouch! Do I read that correctly - were you only playing one credit? Oh well, still looks pretty!

ken2v
10-02-2011, 08:08 PM
If it's an older flat-top then edge-wise it makes no difference.

engicedave
10-02-2011, 08:08 PM
Ouch! Do I read that correctly - were you only playing one credit? Oh well, still looks pretty!

$1000

No bonus in 3 credits, just multipler of three
So, if I played 3 credits, I risk my bankroll three times faster

ken2v
10-02-2011, 08:11 PM
$1000

No bonus in 3 credits, just multipler of three
So, if I played 3 credits, I risk my bankroll three times faster

Don't sweat it Dave. A GREAT win and you understand the principles. Congrats.

Brensan
10-02-2011, 08:14 PM
Good point! But I always play max, and you probably last longer than I do in the Casinos!!:nworthy:

ken2v
10-02-2011, 08:21 PM
Good point! But I always play max, and you probably last longer than I do in the Casinos!!:nworthy:

Playing max is not a bad strategy if you have the bankroll and you understand what you are confronting. In multiplier games--the nth-coin jackpot pays off geometrically not arithmetically, as with a full-coin RF in VP or a slot where, say, the second coin jackpot is more than twice the single-coin--not playing the nth coin actually increases the house edge.

Electroguy563
10-02-2011, 11:55 PM
I know there are a lot of differing opinions regarding the Time of day of slot wins and management controlling the winning percentages and times etc.....


But in reality, has anyone had decent slot machine wins in the morning hours, 5 AM to noon,,,

or in the afternoon hours from noon to say 7PM....

I know many have had wins, including myself, at nighttime, 7PM to 3 AM,,,

but has anyone had good wins in the regular morning and afternoon hours...?

Just wondering as I'm going in about 2 weeks and don't want to waste money if it is rigged a bit to pay less during those morning and sfternoon times....

Thanks
Teddy

I've been to Vegas 4 times. My first time I won 700 dollars and some change at a 25 cent 3 coin max slot at Golden nugget at 9 p.m.

Second time I won 200 dollars at a Hot Hot Penny machine at 2 p.m. in the afternoon at Excaliber.

Third time I won 748 dollars at a 25 cent slot at NYNY about one in the afternoon.

Last year I won 558 dollars at a 25 cent slot in the California Hotel. It was 8 in the morning.

On all 4 trips I won smaller amts. between 60 to a hundred dollars on various slots and if I remember right it was pretty equal as to time it was won, some in the daytime, some at nite.

I would not doubt that with today's technology it is possible for casinos to change the pay-back percentages of machines with a click of a mouse, however I think guys like you and I will never play long enough for it to make a difference.

I do admire the fact that you want as much info on the games so you can play more effectively and smarter. That's the smart way to gamble. Good Luck!!:wave:

FoolsGold
10-03-2011, 03:14 AM
I know there are a lot of differing opinions regarding the Time of day of slot wins and management controlling the winning percentages and times etc...
Are you trying to justify your absurd opinion by saying that there are a great many opinions and that therefore yours is somehow worthy of consideration?

Non-server based slots can not be adjusted without physical replacement of the chip sets, the serial numbers of which must be recorded and faxed to the Commission with appropriate written entries recorded in the MEAL book for each individual machine. So there ain't gonna be none of this change 'em in the morning and change 'em again in the afternoon.

Morning, noon and night its all the same. The RNG divides each second into about 15,000 slices and uses the last one of them to have been sliced when the little red button was pressed.

wigwam_salesman
10-03-2011, 04:33 AM
Anyone that believes that machines pay out more at certain times of day needs to seriously start considering professional help.

teddybo
10-03-2011, 04:49 AM
No matter how many times and ways you ask this question you are not going to get the answer you obviously want. So just go to Vegas, take money you can afford to lose, play what and when you want, and just enjoy. And hopefully you will win some.


you are right, and I apologize for asking the same question again only re-worded.

ken2v
10-03-2011, 07:15 AM
you are right, and I apologize for asking the same question again only re-worded.

Teddy, I'm not at all offended about the redundancy. This site is about sharing knowledge. But seeing trends in slot payouts that don't exist, desperately wanting hocus-pocus stuff like "hot" and "cold" to materialize won't help you as a gambler.

The house edge is a big tide against which to swim, and savvy players learn all they can, and what can be learned is stuff like proper strategy in BJ or VP, understanding VP paytables, the difference between a flat-top slot and a multiplier, live poker. Paytables can be more readily switched now; even if the house is employing it there is no way for you, me or anyone but the house to know which slot is set at what and when. That has NOT changed.

Some might think it logical to assume the house has this grand plan of payout cycling. It is not needed. Look around, some of the worst plays in the house are the most popular plays; the house already has us.