Big Ten - Expansion

[SH0CK]

Before anyone gets their drawer in a wad, this is just a discussion about POSSIBLE expansion of the Big Ten.

I was reading about how the Wisconsin AD has recently changed his stance on having a Big Ten football title game. Of course, NCAA rules specify that conferences must have 12 teams to be able to hold a championship game in football.

Here in the South, the SEC title game is a big time rating and money maker, as is the Big 12 and now ACC championships. I'm sure a Big Ten title game would be the same.

So heres, the discussion.

Because the Big Ten would need to add a 12th member, who would be the best choice to add? The site (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/16477) I was reading had comments from readers and they offered up a few ideas.

Their recommendations were:
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Missouri
Rutgers
Northern Illinois
Iowa State

Here's my thoughts on their expansion. Taking into consideration that I don't think any of the major conferences will let go of any schools anytime soon. So it looks like maybe a raid on the Mid-American Conference more than anything.

Notre Dame

The Big Ten's wet dream, but I don't look for Notre Dame to shack up with any conference unless they go on a big time losing streak and the money starts drying up.
They are already an Independant as far as football goes, so adding them is not much of a logistical problem.
Big time television exposure
Temple
A perrenial football loser, but this gets the Big Ten up to 12 members and an automatic win every year
They are a member of the MAC now, after getting the boot from the Big East
Big time television market
Ohio
Very good team to add competion
Natural rivalry with Ohio State
Bowling Green
A "name" team
Natural rivalry with Ohio State
Not a "directional" school from the Big Ten geographical region, ala Central MI, Western MI, Northern Illinois.
Northern Illinois
A team that has been good in the recent past
Natural rivalry with Illinois
So who should it be football fans?

[sacredcow133]

I don't know, I don't really see it happening. First off Notre Dame should never join another conference, they are known to be the independents, and I don't think they'll give up that title. My choices would have to be Bowling Green and Temple. But I don't really see Temple getting in the conference because they are a horrible football team.
But honestly, who cares about the Big Ten? You're from Tennessee, root for our Vols, everyone knows the SEC is the conference to beat!

[Reston]

Well, interesting scenario. That long layoff after the OSU-Michigan game is a momentum killer anyway, so a championship game a couple of weeks after that would be great for the teams playing in bowl games later. Of course, it could screw up a BCS bid and we also could end up seeing some back-to-back OSU-Michigan games from time to time!

As to Ohio U joining the Big 10, as an alum of that fine school (which was ranked the #1 party school in the nation during my tenure there), I have to ask: "What you been smoking, SH0CK?" :)

While the Bobcats have made some improvements in recent years (after that run in the 1980s when they were ranked the worst Division IA football team for the entire decade), I don't think they would get even token consideration to join the Big 10. In addition, having grown up in Columbus and being a Buckeye fan, I can state with certainty that there is no rivalry between Ohio Univ. and OSU. Nor is there one between Bowling Green and OSU. In Ohio college football, it's THE Ohio State University and ... well, nothing.

[SH0CK]

You're from Tennessee, root for our Vols, everyone knows the SEC is the conference to beat!Yeah, but this would add another game to my television, and I'm all for that. Plus, I'm so tired of people pissing and moaning around here about Fulmer that I could just :vomit:
Yes, the man is as interesting as a wet napkin, but he can recruit and he wins games. That's more than a lot of college teams can say.

Nice avatar btw :thumbsup:

In addition, having grown up in Columbus and being a Buckeye fan, I can state with certainty that there is no rivalry between Ohio Univ. and OSU. Nor is there one between Bowling Green and OSU. In Ohio college football, it's THE Ohio State University and ... well, nothing.Fair point. I would liken Ohio State vs Ohio to something like Tennessee vs Memphis or Vanderbilt. Those have been some interesting games in the past though. But, I can see how OSU wouldn't want to share any stroke with those little MAC schools.

Am I wrong in thinking that any school in a BCS conference would NOT jump ship to the Big Ten? Pittsburgh? Sysracuse? Iowa State? Rutgers? Missouri?

I can't see many Big East schools jumping just because of how strong a basketball conference they are. Cincinnati, Louisville, etc. If a Big East school were to jump to the Big Ten, the Big East would have to either go raiding the Sun Belt for some low tier teams; Florida International or Florida Atlantic, or raid Conference USA; Marshall, UCF, or Memphis. I see the MAC schools staying the same in this scenario.

I also find it hard to believe Syracuse will jump ship so soon after joining the ACC too.

[bigalbr]

I can't believe Missouri would ever leave the Big 12. They're on the edge regionally, but they have traditional rivalries with the Big 12. There only Big Ten rival is Illinois.

One school the Big Ten might get is Iowa State. They have a strong rivalry with Iowa that might be better as a conference game. That way they could schedule another home game every year.

[SH0CK]

One school the Big Ten might get is Iowa State. They have a strong rivalry with Iowa that might be better as a conference game. That way they could schedule another home game every year.Say Iowa State does make the move over to the Big Ten. Who does the Big 12 go after to fill their roster? Would they go after another former SWC college in the form of Houston, TCU, Rice, SMU, or, try and pull a fast one by going after, Arkansas from the SEC?
Or do they color outside the lines and go after Colorado State, New Mexico, New Mexico State, Air Force or someone else all together?

My guess, in this scenario, would be Arkansas their first choice (with Memphis taking their spot in the SEC), then Colorado State the second choice. Any and all Texas schools would possibly get a courtesy look, but with 4 schools already in Texas, a little diversity would be good.

And yes, I am WAAAAYYYYYY over thinking this stuff, but I find it kinda fun :)

[bigalbr]

The Big 12 might try to pick up Missouri State. Their football is probably an issue, but they fit in well in basketball.

I doubt Arkansas will leave the SEC. There's really nothing for them in the Big 12. If they end up in the South, they're up against Texas and Oklahoma every year. That's about equal to LSU and Auburn. No competitive advantage, probably no financial incentive.

Memphis is kind of a tough SEC sell. You've got to have great football. Memphis just isn't good enough. Maybe Louisville is the answer. Or they could pick up Tulane again.

[HurricaneMikey]

First of all, Notre Dame will *never* give up it's independent status, as far as football is concerned. Every time they go to a BCS game and get a $10-$12 million payout, they don't have to share it with the rest of their 'conference'. Since they are unaffiliated, all that money goes directly to Notre Dame coffers. They also have that exclusive NBC contract, and wouldn't be willing to give that up either.

I'd kinda like to see Louisville in the Big Ten, but I'm thinking that Iowa State is actually the most likely fit. But then the Big XII could go after BYU.

Mikey

PS... I love this college football talk. Five weeks baby--I can hardly wait!

[Falcon_Rob]

Shock, nice discussion, but please don't ever mention the words "Ohio State" and "rivalry" while including any other team besides Michigan! Bowling Green, Ohio, etc. would not be rivalries since more than half of the people at those schools would be rooting for the Bucks (your's truly included.....please ignore my avatar). I could see Cincy being a nice "side rivalry" every year though. Cincinnati is located in Kentucky, right?

Let's get crazier. How about the Big Ten ejecting Northwestern and wooing in both Cincy and Louisville? Discuss.

[loveshed]

As a proud alum of Northern Illinois I will be the first to tell you they have no business in the Big Ten. They have made strides and have been competitive some of the majors however it is not ready to make that kind of leap. The real plus would be that it is only an hour and a half from downtown Chicago and a half hour drive to Ohare airport. Just ask Northwestern if they are ready to compete on the major's level.

[Double_Down]

Louisville doesn't meet the academic standards of the other schools in the Big10. I'm talking for the "real" students, not the joke standards for the jocks. I don't think the Big 10 would have any interest in adding BGSU, Ohio, N. Illinois, or any other MAC school. What they would be looking for is to expand into other (re: larger) markets. I think Syracuse or Rutgers would be the natural targets to add the NY/NJ TV markets for the new Big 10 network.

Pitt would be huge for Penn State to re-establish that rivalry, just as Iowa State would be big in Iowa. But I think the Big 10 has their sights set a little higher.

[doctor_al]

Interesting discussion. I've attended 3 of the big ten schools and grew up in the shadow of a fourth. I've been waiting for the 12th school since they went to 11. 'Course then the name, already inaccurate, becomes even more of a joke.

Notre Dame really is the natural fit, but as everybody has noticed, being a "conference of one" (those "Notre dame Broadcasting Company" shirts were an awesome statement) is a lucrative cash cow they aren't giving up until it really falls apart for them.

The rest of the Big Ten is (mostly) composed of large land-grant universities. The MAC schools aren't a good fit. Iowa State is interesting though, and might be a good one. Pitt wouldn't be bad. Syracuse and Rutgers are too "east", perhaps more in perception than geography, although I think there are probably some decent parallels at Rutgers vs. rest of big ten. I'm sure these have other repercussions. I'm also sure I don't care about the details - if somebody wants it to happen, it'll happen.

Honestly, I think Northwestern (one of my 3) is in the wrong conference, and dropping them would get back to a "ten". Of course, this would also be swimming against the cash flow (this time for the Big Ten) so *that* won't happen either.

And why does the NCAA have conference playoffs but no national championship playoffs?

[TT9315]

Good question.

I'd like to see Pitt be the 12th team. Louisville and Iowa State are also good fits. These teams could develop some good rivalries with existing Big 10 teams.

I can't see Pitt or Louisville leaving the Big East but who knows. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I don't see a MAC team as a possibility.

[FredGarvinMP]

Whoever ends up as the 12th member of the Big 10, one thing remains:

It's time for Michigan to get over its Bo fetish and bounce Lloyd Carr in favor of a coach who can win the big ones! :cry:

[Reston]

The rest of the Big Ten is (mostly) composed of large land-grant universities. The MAC schools aren't a good fit.

Explain please, Doc! (If I recall my Ohio Univ indoctrination correctly, it was the nation's first land-grant university, founded in 1804.)

[Reston]

Whoever ends up as the 12th member of the Big 10, one thing remains:

It's time for Michigan to get over its Bo fetish and bounce Lloyd Carr in favor of a coach who can win the big ones! :cry:


NNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I'm going to start a "Keep Carr" campaign.

[Double_Down]

Explain please, Doc! (If I recall my Ohio Univ indoctrination correctly, it was the nation's first land-grant university, founded in 1804.)

I think we're talking semantics here. Ohio U. was established through tthe Northwest Ordinance of 1787 to encourage settlement of the Northwest Territory.

Land-grant colleges are institutions of higher education in the United States that have been designated by the United States Congress to receive the benefits of the Morrill Acts of 1862 and 1890.

The Morrill Act stated that eligible states were to receive 30,000 acres of federal land for each member of congress the state had as of the census of 1860. This land was to be used for colleges that taught engineering, agriculture and military tactics.

I suppose you could consider OU a land-grant university, even though it came before the Morrill Act.

History lesson over....we now return to your previously scheduled topic.

:goofy:

So, since the University of Alaska is a land-grant university, does that make them a good fit to join the Big 11? :poke:

[doctor_al]

Explain please, Doc! (If I recall my Ohio Univ indoctrination correctly, it was the nation's first land-grant university, founded in 1804.)

"Ohio University was chartered by the state of Ohio in 1804 and is the oldest university in the Northwest Territory." - forgot to grab the link.

"No, Ohio University is a non-land grant institution."
http://www.ohiou.edu/orsp/guide/pdfs/11faq.pdf

Enrollment about 20,000
http://www.ohiou.edu/instres/student/quartenroll/QuartEnrollFALL.html

About as far as I care to go with it. Can't find a big table comparing enrollments, but 20k is on the small side for the typical big ten school. IMO, priorities and capabilities don't match the big ten schools I'm familiar with (chemistry dept would be what I'd be familiar with, and it just wasn't a factor there - nor is it really in Div 1 sports). But I could well be wrong, it's not something I ever did a dissertation on.

[SH0CK]

Most of the stuff that I've been reading today centers around a few candidates, all based on television markets, the new Big Ten Network and... MONEY:

Notre Dame (possible pressure from Big Ten by not scheduling games with them)
Syracuse - NY TV Market
Rutgers - NY TV Market
Missouri - St. Louis TV Market

3 of these 4 would cause a ripple effect with other conferences, and we could be here again talking about the Big East or the Big 12 filling holes.

[Double_Down]

Big Ten enrollments can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Conference

Northwestern at 13,407 is less than half of the next biggest enrollment, University of Iowa.

Thus, the reason it is still called the Big 10 (plus NU). :poke:

Northwestern is the only private college in the Big 10 + 1.

[FredGarvinMP]

NNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I'm going to start a "Keep Carr" campaign.

Is it safe to assume you are a Browneyes (I mean Buckeyes) fan?

:poke:

If so, feel free to hire him as your new John Cooper!

[Reston]

Is it safe to assume you are a Browneyes (I mean Buckeyes) fan?

:poke:

If so, feel free to hire him as your new John Cooper!

Coop did manage to win the Rose Bowl for us one year. But no, you keep Carr and we'll keep Tressel and we'll see how it turns out, LOL!

(To be fair, I believe Carr is 6-6 vs. OSU. It's just lately that it's been a problem....)

[SH0CK]

Notre Dame (possible pressure from Big Ten by not scheduling games with them)Leave it to Michigan to screw up those plans.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/ncaa/07/30/bc.fbc.michigan.notreda.ap/index.html

[IllMarty]

I think Iowa State or Mizzou make the most sense. They are both large schools with good academics, although Mizzou gets the TV market edge.

Illinois would never ever ever let NIU into the conference, as the Huskies would spank them in football most seasons. NIU has the size too I believe, with enrollment over 20,000 in De Kalb. The Chicago TV market is dominated by ND and Big Ten in general, so there would be little value added.

Out east, only Pitt seems like a good fit. Rich football tradition, decent basketball.

I thought Northwestern should have left the conference a while back, then they went and won a couple years in the mid-90s, so I ain't to smart.

With the domino effect that either of the first two mentioned would start, I would love to see Southern Miss in the SEC. Definately the best team in the state.

[doctor_al]

I thought Northwestern should have left the conference a while back, then they went and won a couple years in the mid-90s, so I ain't to smart.


It's not a steady-state thing. If they do well, just wait for the infractions a year or two later. Same thing applies to U of Minn, for that matter.

[FredGarvinMP]

Well, since it is obvious the only team that really makes sense is the one team that it will never be :cry: :vomit: - Notre Dame - then my supremely insignificant vote goes to Pitt.

Cross state rivalry - check. Nationally recognized - roger. Market size - ten-four.

[SH0CK]

I really didn't want to dignify this Sporting News dumbass's article, but the sports talk people and fans around here found it VERY funny. I've never seen someone actually talk out of their ass before, but this guy came awful close...
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=248312Texas.:kill: To a conference looking to make itself more powerful, geography is just Michael Jordan's major. You think Austin is too far from State College? Well, nobody's riding a motor scooter from Boston to Miami, either.

Roping in the Longhorns would give the Big Ten entry into the Dallas (6th largest), Houston (10th) and San Antonio markets (37th). Oh, and Austin (52nd), of course. There are more than 23 million people in Texas. That's a lot of TV sets.

Tennessee. :kill::kill: Is the SEC safe from a potential raid? Not unless Texas says yes. Tennessee would be extremely attractive because of the Vols' football drawing power, the presence of markets No. 30 (Nashville), 44 (Memphis), 60 (Knoxville) and 86 (Chattanooga) and the highly functional men's and women's basketball programs.

Missouri. If the Horns don't want in, raiding the Big 12 for Mizzou might be a decent consolation prize. At one end of the state, you've got St. Louis (21st market). At the other end, there's Kansas City (31st). The travel would be a bit more convenient. Does it matter that the football team never quite can get out of its own way? Not if Mizzou fans keep watching.

Kentucky. The top two Kentucky markets are only 48th (Louisville) and 63rd (Lexington), but the threat of UK basketball games being unavailable to its unrelenting fan base would force the state's cable systems to add the network on whatever terms the Big Ten wanted.

Notre Dame. I'm convinced the league never again would invite Notre Dame to join. And I'm fairly certain the Irish still aren't crazy about putting their football program in a conference. But as long as the expansion possibility is floating out there, if the caller ID at the Big Ten office indicates somebody from the 574 area code is ringing in, Delany will pick up the phone.

Do not expect Syracuse, Rutgers or Pitt to be among the targets. The Big Tenners are smart enough to know they are not going to get their network priority on New York metropolitan cable systems that already are jammed with YES and MSG and where the colleges are not a high priority. With Penn State, the Big Ten network already has a path into the Pittsburgh market.

[mctrees02]

If the Big 10 adds a 12th team...it will be from the Big 12. Former Big 12 commish Kevin Weiberg left this summer to run the Big 10 TV Network. He would obviously have close ties to Mizzou and Iowa St. While I would hope that they would go after Iowa St...Mizzou is a MUCH better grab for them in bolstering what many consider a mediocore conference after Ohio St/Michigan/3rd team (varies on a yearly basis). Assuming that the Big 12 North loses a team to the Big 10...here's are a few scenarios for how the divisions could be broken down

Scenario 1
North
Nebraska
Colorado
Colorado St
Kansas
Kansas St
Mizzou/Iowa St (whichever one doesn't leave)

**South Division remains the same**

Scenario 2
North
Nebraska
Colorado
Kansas
Kansas St
Mizzou/Iowa St (whichever one stays)
BlowU

South
Texas
Texas Tech
Texas A&M
TCU
Baylor
Okie Lite

**This would restore the Nebraska/BlowU rivalry from the Big 8 days while also bringing more balance to the two divisions. Any changes such as this would require a stipulation put into the bylaws requiring the Texas/BlowU game to continue every year. This didn't happen with Nebraska/BlowU when they moved to the Big 12 (as is the case this year).***

Scenario 3
North
Nebraska
Colorado
Colorado St
Kansas
Kansas St
Mizzou/Iowa St

South
Texas
Texas Tech
Texas A&M
TCU
Blow U
Okie Lite

***A highly unlikely scenario that the Big 12 would get rid of Baylor for TCU. While Baylor has been a doormat in football for 20+ years, they are one of the best in track, baseball, womens basketball, and tennis and I doubt they would get the axe in favor of the Horned Frogs here. However, the money from a new TV deal that eliminates a "dead game" such as Baylor would could certainly cause this deal to be considered.***