A question of ethics.

[PatekPhil]

Situation:

You are playing craps at one of your favorite casinos, downtown. It happens to be a dealer break-in sort of place, so you're accustomed to weak dealers, but you still choose to gamble there. You are a rated and comped player in this casino.

At craps, the guy next to you is cheating - overtly. Past-posting and capping field bets. (Putting out his bet discreetly once the dice have been rolled and showing a field number, or adding to his winning bet by quickly putting chips on top of the bet prior to payout.) The guy is a little scary looking, and we're not talking large amounts of money here - a few $5 chips here and there.

Do you:

- Do nothing.
- Find a way to catch the attention of the pit boss / boxman and call attention to this behaviour
- Indicate to the guy you know exactly what he's doing and he better cut you a piece of the action
- Just move on to a different property to play
- Something else?

What I did and why:

- I cashed out when I wanted to, and spoke to the pit boss about getting a comp steakhouse. Then I said (with my back turned to the table - so no one knew) to watch out for the dude past-posting and capping bets. The pit boss was extremely grateful and wrote me a much larger comp than what I'd normally be entitled to.

Why did I rat the guy out? Economically, cheaters are bad for people like me who enjoy gaming. Someone making money illegitimately may force casinos to clamp down on small house edge games even further. Paying 6:5 on blackjacks for example.

However, if a dealer makes an error in my favour, I 99% of the time accept it and chalk it up to good luck.

Anyways - just curious how others would behave in this situation.

-PatekPhil

[HurricaneMikey]

If somebody is pass posting or taking shots, I call them out, outloud, and I don't care how scary they look. I'm not easily intimidated, and actually, I can be *very* intimidating when I need to be.

If a dealer makes an error, that's one thing, I think, in my 99-shades-of-gray world. But if a person is overtly cheating, and a dealer doesn't catch it, his job may be in jeopardy. Dealers make mistakes all the time, and it's the cost of doing business, and break-in houses especially know this. But if somebody keeps cheating and the dealers never catch it, and the Eye or the floor finally does, the dealer is going to get a talking to, which probably won't be pleasant.

Rat the bastard out.

Mikey

[doctor_al]

i like the way you handled it, PP. Not sure where you're playing but I'm guessing you have a relationship with that casino, which figures into it also. Me, I think I'd just be watching the situation, see what happens. Not that I'd be protecting anybody, just curious how it plays out.

[gmoney590]

I would have handled it the same way, be discreet bring it to the attention of the pit boss. No need to create a situation that you may not be able to control by outing him at the table in front of everyone. I do have a question about the eye in the sky. How long before they would have caught the cheating?

[Jack21]

Sounds like you played that one perfectly....safely screwed the cheater while bumping up your standing with the boss.

Perhaps a slightly less advantageous but more amusing way woud be feign newbie roller and make exclamations like "That's a cool move, you win more that way; can you teach me?" Or ask him "innocent" questions about his maneuvers.

[Whobeme]

I'm with you PP cheaters hurt my odds. But I'm with Mikey on calling a cheater out, especially the low end type it not like he's in the mob if he betting $5. chips. Now somebody that looks and steals like hes in the mob, him I'm still ratting out but on the sly. I'll always do the right thing but not always so loudly.

[bigalbr]

I think you did the right thing. If you're right and the guy is legitimately cheating, the pit has better remedies (i.e. jail) than you do. If you're wrong, the pit can go check it out and see what's up. Game protection is their job.

[blackjack]

I agree with what you did as well. Mikey's way may be more fun but, if the boss or the eye doesn't catch him in the act, he'll most likely skate.

[sanonofresurfer]

I think you handled it the right way PP. I'd go for the less obvious method of telling the pit boss and not attracting attention to yourself. Otherwise, you never know what goes on in people's heads...you may go back to your car and find an exploding backpack on it.

[Sonya]

I would probably try to do the eye contact thing with the boxman, but most likely I'd do what you did and cash out and discreetly tell the boss.

[PatekPhil]

FWIW - the property was the ElCo, and I'm a-heading back there in about 2 weeks...

They treat me well there, and the pit boss / boxman recognizes me everytime I come in for a craps fix.

Thanks all for your input!

-PatekPhil.

[HoyaHeel]

The sad thing is it's highly unlikely I'd notice cheating--I'm still new enough to craps that I have a hard time following the basic stuff I need to know to figure out my bets, etc. and wouldn't see or pay attention to what other people at the table are doing. I'm also a bit of a fraidy-cat about other people's behavior--I'm far more likely to make snarky comments under my breath than confront someone directly. So if I did actually happen to notice something I thought was cheating, I guess I'd handle it the way you did. Better luck next time--may the karma be with you:thumbsup:

[Dean Martin]

I kind of like the idea of playing dumb and saying fairly loud.... "wow, I didn't know we could add to our bet after the roll... no wonder all my friends always win at craps"...:)

[bluestreak]

The "box" (man or woman) are a vanishing breed of pit critter. So game protection for the house and player gets diminished. I guess if I had an ongoing relationship with the joint I would discretely bring it to the house's attention.

So, does El-Co still have a stool for the box? What other joints have given it up?

[PatekPhil]

At the ElCo, they have a boxman, and he's usually watching the dealers very closely because the dealers are often very new / weak. As such, I guess he doesn't have as much time to watch for past-posting and such - he's busy helping out with basic math - especially when there is someone like me playing who pushes up their odds aggressively - its never the same bet twice with me.

He appears to also double as the pitboss for the small pit area around the craps table - so if you want to discuss comps etc, he leaves his box post and goes to the computer to check out your action. He also has to get up from time to time to enter in players cards from other tables in the immediate pit area.

(At least this is how I recall the configuration from a few months ago.)

Seems to me that a more efficient way to handle things would be to get a more experienced stickman to help out - watching not only the prop bets but keeping an eye on the table as a whole for anomalies, because if someone was going to take an angle shot, I'd say this set up is about ideal. It was great - I was in first position, and I'd regularly get asked by the dealer 'Have I already paid you?' - a dishonest player could've channeled some acting ability, left his original bet out there and demanded a second payout NUMEROUS times.

Anyways - I still love the ElCo, and they treat my mid-level action very generously.

[sanonofresurfer]

.... "wow, I didn't know we could add to our bet after the roll... no wonder all my friends always win at craps"...:)

Thanks Dean. Had to clean my monitor off after that one. That would be the kind of comment I would pull. Play stupid, rat them out, and have fun doing it....all while looking like you don't know what you're doing. 2 Thumbs up!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Joe Strummer]

I'm from NY -
I wouldn't say ANYTHING at the table about The Cheater.
It's not for me to conduct Casino Business.
I would NEVER address The Cheater , personally.
You could get a knife in your back very quickly !
Even over $5 --- That's a reality from where I come from.
.
I may however, say something to the Pit ( on the side)
if .........I LIKED THE PIT STAFF.
( plenty of pit staffs I don't care for )
I would NOT LEAVE the table because of a cheater -
I would LIKE to see how it plays out --- I'd stick around.
after all -- I'm on vacation + this is VEGAS !
.
my 2 cents

[xizor]

Question - is it possible the cheater was there on purpose to "test" the new dealers? See if they could pick up on it? If he was as blatant like you say, this makes me more nervous that the eye in the sky couldn't catch him.

[keno]

Question - is it possible the cheater was there on purpose to "test" the new dealers? See if they could pick up on it? If he was as blatant like you say, this makes me more nervous that the eye in the sky couldn't catch him.

That was my first thought as well, that he was a plant.

[HurricaneMikey]

I'm from NY -

You could get a knife in your back very quickly !
Even over $5 --- That's a reality from where I come from.



Right On! Gotta bring your 'Street Cred' with you to the El Cortez. :rolleyes2:

Nobody's going to get a knife in their back over $5, especially there at the table with about a dozen witnesses and half a dozen cameras.

Even the dumbest of criminals in this town aren't that stupid --

And no, it's not a plant trying to test the dealers, either. Catching cheaters is *not* the dealers responsibility--that rests on the box, the floor, security, and surveillance. Dealer's responsibility is to deal the game, granted, game protection is part of it, but in a break-in joint like the ElCo? Please. The more experienced the dealer, the more observant he becomes. But a break-in dice dealer is too busy figuring payoffs and trying not to be the weakest link at the table. That's why there are usually floorpeople standing behind the dice games at a break-in joint.

That being said, it wasn't a "plant" of any kind, either. It was just a common thief. Believe, me, casinos are MUCH too cheap to pay somebody to do that kind of job. Hell, even the shills on the payroll have to play with their own money, the casinos only pay them an hourly wage--no bankroll subsidies.

Cheaters and 'shot takers' are a dime a dozen downtown. Not a day goes by that somebody isn't trying to pull something on a break-in dice game. Hell, even at nicer joints people try and take advantage of a weak dealer/box/floorperson all the time.

Call 'em out. Nothing works better than shame for changing undesirable behavior.

People seem to have forgotten that, going out of their way to be non-confrontational. I'm just not wired like that... If I happen to see something that crosses the line from my personal interpretation of 'gray area', I tend to speak up.

Oh... and not to sound too bloodthirsty, but unlike New York, Nevada respects the second amendment, so folks here can 'conceal carry'. Your thug from the Bronx might get all stabby about getting publicly shamed for cheating, but he better be careful who he pulls the knife on. He may end up with a small hole in front and a larger hole in back.

I'm just sayin'.


I'm from Las Vegas. That's the reality where I come from.

Word!!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/HurricaneMikey/fist.jpg

Mikey

[weluvvegas]

I would've done the same as Mikey -- and if the guy really was scary looking, I would make sure he didn't see me talking to the pit boss!

[Joe Strummer]

You have never dealt with a "psych" patient off
their "meds".
.
They have no idea what is rational behavior -
(blatant cheating may be a symptom)
You and your concealed gun are nothing more
than a terrorizing hallucination, to them.
.
Speak right up and point out all injustice -
Good luck, John Wayne.

[HurricaneMikey]

You have never worked in a casino, either.

A psych patient off their meds would be behaving irrationally long before he decided to cap his bet at the dice table, and security would already be close by, watching.

I think all the flashing lights and loud noises might be a little more 'terrorizing' to them, at least more so than some dude at the table ratting them out. And since it was a concealed weapon, it wouldn't be terrorizing him until it was too late. And then it wouldn't be a hallucination, either.

But seriously, are knife-wielding psych patients really that much of a problem in your neighborhood? I've been to New York a couple of times, and I never ran into any... I mean, you base your whole response on the off chance of sharing a table with a maniac from a slasher movie...

Mikey

[Joe Strummer]

Mikey,
I feel this is getting off the topic.
.
I felt my post was "challenged" by your reply.
My mistake.
.
Yes,
I have worked in hospitals as a technician +
currently work in a public building with all sorts
of "characters" passing thru daily.
.
I do feel,sometimes in a Casino setting -
we expect the most out of the "Eye In The Sky"
and Security --- which is just not capable of watching everything
and protecting us at all times.
.
I few years back - while in Vegas -
I decided to head over to El Cortez one morning.
I was getting dressed w/ the TV morning news on -
headline story ? ( you remember this incident ?)
Somebody was murdered right outside the El Cortez door.
That wasn't you dishing out "Cheater's Justice" was it ?:wink2:
Mikey "John Wayne" Hurricane !

[Nevyn]

Question - is it possible the cheater was there on purpose to "test" the new dealers? See if they could pick up on it? If he was as blatant like you say, this makes me more nervous that the eye in the sky couldn't catch him.

I'm no expert on Vegas security, and maybe the El Cortez has few enough high limit games that it would really care, but I would not have thought the eye in the sky would focus that much regular attention on a low limit craps game. I'd think it would be recorded, and could be referred to in the case of a systemic issue, but I would not expect it to be heavily scrutinized real time.
The extra cheaters you caught would not be worth the salary of the monitoring staff.

Not saying he wasn't a plant. It could well be one. But I think at some point we tend to mythologize the ability of casinos to monitor such things. If it was a plant, he could as easily have been testing the dealer's honesty as his awareness.

As for what I'd do, I don't play craps enough that I'd likely notice, and if I did, I'd probably ask about it and not be playing dumb "you can do that?".

[Jer]

When I was dealing, the only time I actually sa someone cheating was pretty stupid... The guy thought he was sly and kept putting three to four red chips on his bet when he won. The thing was, he was on an insane winning streak. I called out "shuffle", which we never did, and the pit boss came over and I started asking him a stupid question and he knew something was up.

The pitboss went to the other side and then the guy actually lost a bet and took chips off.... Not more than 30 seconds later the suits came over and escorted the guy away...

Look.. Stuff gets past the eye. But in the long run, these asses get caught.

[PatekPhil]

A few more details - I play craps at the ElCo pretty hard for the action they usually see - this is probably why I get treated pretty well by them. $500 buy-ins and $24 place bets on the 6/8, $5 pass and $50 odds, always have a come bet working, pressure when making shooter is making passes. So - I would imagine there is a little more scrutiny on the game when I'm around then at other occasions. Not BIG action, but pretty big for the ElCo.

The guy in question was bigger than me (I'm pretty big myself) and I wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley. Considering I was going to have to walk back to the Plaza, I didn't want to have a 'chance encounter' with an angry dude I had ratted out. I wasn't worried about a confrontation at the table - I was worried about one outside the casino on my way back, or not feeling safe in the entire Downtown area for the duration of my stay.

Long story short - I live and work in Kabul - which on the face of it may sound scary - however I've been mugged in NY and had a bag snatched in Beijing, house and car breakins in Vancouver. I haven't experienced ANY petty crime in Kabul - sure, a few VERY scary bomb attacks, but no random petty crime. I would rather avoid a nasty encounter in one of my favorite cities. However I also don't want my gaming enjoyment to be negatively impacted by losers taking lame potshots at the casino - even if it was only for $15 - $20 a pop.

[Joe Strummer]

PatekPhil -
I understand, completely.
Good post !
Good thread.

[Joe Strummer]

About being mugged in NY -
I had an elderly uncle mugged + killed
for the 75 cents in his pocket.
Glad you were okay, Phil.
.
You were smart not to challenge at the table.

[Mochiizee]

I wouldn't tell on the cheater just because, plain and simple I don't care. If they are nailed by the eye, they are going to prison for a long time. I figure he/she knows the risks and will get blasted by the casino at some point. If casinos can't catch cheaters by this point...

[DonD]

If it was a pretty girl, hell no.:)
Otherwise, I probably would.:evillaugh
Is that ethical?:rolleyes2:

[Exiled in Maine]

Right On! Gotta bring your 'Street Cred' with you to the El Cortez. :rolleyes2:

Nobody's going to get a knife in their back over $5, especially there at the table with about a dozen witnesses and half a dozen cameras.

Even the dumbest of criminals in this town aren't that stupid --

And no, it's not a plant trying to test the dealers, either. Catching cheaters is *not* the dealers responsibility--that rests on the box, the floor, security, and surveillance. Dealer's responsibility is to deal the game, granted, game protection is part of it, but in a break-in joint like the ElCo? Please. The more experienced the dealer, the more observant he becomes. But a break-in dice dealer is too busy figuring payoffs and trying not to be the weakest link at the table. That's why there are usually floorpeople standing behind the dice games at a break-in joint.

That being said, it wasn't a "plant" of any kind, either. It was just a common thief. Believe, me, casinos are MUCH too cheap to pay somebody to do that kind of job. Hell, even the shills on the payroll have to play with their own money, the casinos only pay them an hourly wage--no bankroll subsidies.

Cheaters and 'shot takers' are a dime a dozen downtown. Not a day goes by that somebody isn't trying to pull something on a break-in dice game. Hell, even at nicer joints people try and take advantage of a weak dealer/box/floorperson all the time.

Call 'em out. Nothing works better than shame for changing undesirable behavior.

People seem to have forgotten that, going out of their way to be non-confrontational. I'm just not wired like that... If I happen to see something that crosses the line from my personal interpretation of 'gray area', I tend to speak up.

Oh... and not to sound too bloodthirsty, but unlike New York, Nevada respects the second amendment, so folks here can 'conceal carry'. Your thug from the Bronx might get all stabby about getting publicly shamed for cheating, but he better be careful who he pulls the knife on. He may end up with a small hole in front and a larger hole in back.

I'm just sayin'.


I'm from Las Vegas. That's the reality where I come from.

Word!!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/HurricaneMikey/fist.jpg

Mikey


http://bp2.blogger.com/_Z67ElR1KXlI/RjuLdFtFobI/AAAAAAAAAAU/OpRWNkLmSrA/s1600-h/hulka.bmp

I mean Pyscho

[Nevyn]

If it was a pretty girl, hell no.:)


Why not? Pretty girls look kinda sexy in handcuffs ...

[Nevada Kid]

I'm from Orange County.....
there is no reality where I come from
just wanted to play the bubble card.

[FredGarvinMP]

Why not? Pretty girls look kinda sexy in handcuffs ...

Particularly when they are handcuffed to me. Unfortunately, they keep chewing their arms off! :cry:

[Joe Strummer]

Ethics ?